Business Models

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Zxehenia
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Business Models

The following is a rough idea dumping for how to handle in game businesses. Its prolly going to be a bit messy, but wanted to give peeps a bit of insight of what was being considered as this project is moving forward.

Historically there has been no single universal way on how a business was handled so we have this varied mix of businesses and what they gave to their owners. In some cases it gave an exclusive location with certain in game perks (ie monthly gold, command over people, etc). However obtaining a business and their rewards were never standardized, so we have a range where people paid nothing for a huge gain, and others paid a fortune for no gain and everything in between.

This is a scenario we wish to avoid repeating and have a standardized and simple system in place, and there is a ton of things to consider as we look into this.


What does one get out of a business?
The first question generally considered is what are the gains, why does this matter etc. For the most part it is some kind of resource - historically some business just gave X resource at a given time, while others were about becoming a favored RP spot (aka an old form of rep and popularity measurement).

There are a few perks that can be thought of - resources, reputation, and RP opportunity. Now it is a matter of reflecting that in the system in a way that makes sense and still holds to the golden rule of: All rewards must be worked for. Therefore for the Business Models from here on out there will be no automatic reward of X thing in a time frame. However this also means that players will no longer have to pay for something that doesn't give any kind of gain.

Part of what will be worked on will be trying to find more interesting ways for businesses to be reflected for those that want more then just an IC location to work with.
We also want to make it possible to where if a player only wants a certain aspect of a business that they are still not forced to take all the other parts.

Silver Gains
In the system already we have ways for players to gain silver outside of sessions and selling items. It is possible to do scenes and silver gain is related to the PP gained in the scene. This gives us one way a business can be represented which is of some discussion in the Reputation and Ranks - which is an item. This item can provide a boost to actions reflecting the work in the business which in turn would boost the PP generated in that scene and thus increasing silver gains in general.

Employment Representation
Taking into account our current Economy System (there are some plans to take a look at it in the future and see if we have a better way to handle it) and how we are handling employment starting a business can be handled similarly to a recruitment session. Where the goal of the mini session is the character successfully being able to start one up rather then convincing a NPC/PC to hire them. This in turn will lead to that character also getting an Econ Boost just like any other character seeking employment - the difference is that character is self employed rather then employed by another. Thus no single method of employment is seen as better - and should our econ system change it can be applied to all with no need of conversion.

This will be the first step in building a business.

If the character has already earned all their econ boosts, they will still have to do the mini session as a means of establishing the business. (may look into alternative rewards such as reputation for the mini sesh in such cases)

Businesses and Reputation
Just owning a business will not equate to becoming well known. It is also hard to tie a business in with a flat reputation gain due to our reputation system in general. Unlike silver gains where that is dependent on X PP produced, reputation is rewarded by actual RP which is reflected by counting up the amount of relevant posts pertaining to getting out there and getting the name out. Therefore if we let businesses give a flat rep, people are earning something with no work, which we can not allow. We also do not want people to flat out be able to buy reputation due to the Reputation and Ranks system coming into play. The only time it will be ok to buy rep is if obtaining it from another player as outlined in the Rank and Rep discussion, of which that becomes a trade of resources for services rendered.

Instead Businesses will become a backdrop for reputation, a motivation for earning rep within the relevant circles - this will reflect the owner and their employees getting out there and making the business known. If in the future the Reputation System is changed we can adjust for it. This is also to help encourage cases where multiple PCs are involved in a business to collaborate to do rep gain scenes if they are interested.

Treating all businesses similar to organizations

After taking a long look at it businesses have a lot of things similar to how we are handling organizations - even more so with the introduction of Ranks and such. And those can even come into play in a business in regards to employment and growth.

Just like organizations there has to be a managing/partial owning position that is held by a NPC. This is to handle situations where the player of the founding character for whatever reasons can no longer play and maintain the business project, and Setting can keep it going (especially if the sudden loss of the business has a notable impact on other PCs and the setting)

Some businesses are organizations to begin with. Something like a mercenary company is not only a business but also an organization. So it doesn't make sense and may complicate things if we have too many different types. By treating all businesses as a kind of organization we can apply the rules as they fit (since our organization rules are modular enough for that to begin with)



First Draft: Highlight to view

This gives us a rough outline on how this will work:

Starting a business is akin to finding a job - this is the starting point of it manifesting in game.
Handled by doing a Business starting session, which is just like a recruitment session - rewards econ boost if available or an alternative reward such as rep

Once business is established must create a NPC to be in a right hand/management position. If the player does not make one Setting will make one for them.

Hiring employees after that is a basic recruitment session as covered in the PC to PC relationship thingy - it costs nothing for a PC to hire employees.

From there that leaves us how to get the business as an item. This will likely be obtainable two ways - paying for it or another mini session. We do have a conversion rate for Silver to XP that can be used so it will give players 2 ways to get it pending on preference.

For the time being the item is considered for the owner only as it is about representing the resources gained for owning and managing a business, as atm the only reward for being employed is RP topics and econ boosts.

Something to churn out is how to 'upgrade' the business item - the most obvious option is to after a certain time frame allow the owner to purchase another level via XP grind or Silver, though there will be a max rank of which the item can not be upgraded beyond.

In general the price of the item representing the business will be used to determine the worth of the business (even if the item isn't purchased, it will then just default to the cost of the lowest rank as that reflection will be of a business that hasn't really been grown). This is important in cases where at some time a player may be interested in purchasing an already existing business.
In cases where a PC is still active and owns the business it is at that player's discretion if they want to sell their business or not and they can not be forced to sell if they do not want to.

In order to keep a business once it has been established the player must remain active on the site. If the player is inactive for 6 months Setting assumes control of the business with the established NPC(s) to manage it. If the player returns they will have to work to regain the business that was lost either by starting a new one or purchasing the one back that was lost if applicable.

Part of the nature of the game is competitive in nature and always changing, we can not just pause something because a player can no longer play. Things must be kept moving.

In regards to having a NPC in a position of authority - this is a standard rule for all organizations and projects. While the PC owner is active that NPC is likely to be a backdrop but is there just in case there is a need. But the PC owner can always set the terms for their business while they are active which also includes deciding if they wish to hire other PCs or not, the flavor of the business, etc. In the case of hiring, the PC employer follows the rules already established, but the player may also include in a note if they are ok with a SH doing the recruitment session without them being present and just use the NPC. The player of the PC employee will be able to but notes on NPCs related to their business - they can make such requests with Setting whenever they need to make updates. However if Setting receives no input from the player of the PC owner, they will do their best to build the NPC to fit the business based on what information they have on the business.

Once a business is in control of Setting it follows the same rules as all other NPC owned businesses (especially in regards for purchasing and hiring.)

Co-owning and transfer from PC to PC:

Co-owning a business is simple enough, if more then one player agrees to their characters working together to build up the business, it goes through the same steps, though the co-owning PCs can do the scenes and sessions together rather then solo if they wish. When it comes to purchasing the item - each owner must purchase one (ie one character can't buy it and then share it, each character to take advantage of it must own their own.) - however if being purchased with XP work the players may all do that scene together, and in regards of using coin to buy for the other players it follows the same rules as other PC to PC item transactions.
It is then up to those players to collaborate on what happens to the business from there. If all players of the PC owners go inactive for 6 months, then Setting will assume control with the designated NPC(s)

Transferring control from one player to another also works similarly with some ground rules. The transaction can not be forced in anyway (aka has to follow the same rules as all item transactions between PCs). There must be a scene to provide a record of when the transfer of ownership happened. Once the transfer is complete the former own looses the business item as the new owner gains it (no holding on to it unless of course there is only a partial transfer of control - ie gaining a business partner of which refer to the co-owner rules). The new PC owner can not fire PC employees without an IC reason (and must follow the PC to PC relationship rules) nor can they get rid of NPCs in a position of authority (though they may change them to a different NPC to better reflect their vision of the business)

Investing in a business:

This is about where kind of ran into the idea wall. Investing will likely manifest in several different forms depending on what what players want. The most simple form will be akin to the co-owning scenario, as well as a player character being paid for the investment as reflected by XP (akin to a PC campaigning for another PC), and if investing in general is the character's method of employment then they just follow the rules to make their own business to get an item for their investing scenes.
However in some ways investing is also like gambling, though ina way that is kind of covered in generating PP for silver in a scene. Investing in a business can also be a topic for a rep gain scene where applicable. The key thing to keep in mind is to get any kind of reward there must be some matching work done.


Updated - Rewrote in hope of ease of reading and with some of the feedback given.

  • Make it accessible at any level
  • Do not a repeat of past instances where the system was eventually rigged in favor of a very select few
  • Economy System is put X amount of Silver and get Y amount of Silver over time - do not want to repeat this
  • Must put some form of ‘work’ in to get some reward - aka no passive gains
  • Do not want to make Reputation just another universal currency

RP Topic: Basically a motivation for a RP. Get no rewards or perks from it.
Paying with XP: Roleplaying out a scene to a target amount of XP in order to earn a perk

To have a business as just a RP topic for a character requires no steps - but such business provide no perks, no rewards, and have no effect system wise. Aka it is no more than flavor, no location outside of a personal room, or makes use of existing area locations.

To have a business that gives some kind of perk, reward or other system effect will require some kind of work investment be it through XP or Silver.

If a player has been playing with a business as flavor they will have to do new RP scenes to start the path to perks/rewards.


Starting a business

“Recruitment Session” to establish record of start of business. Rewards one of the following:

  • Econ Boost
  • Reputation

Business reflected in an item that will boost silver gains in a monthly scene. Can choose 1 out of the possible options.

  • Can give a bonus to a skill (stackable with other skill items)
  • Can give a flat silver boost to the scene (meaning you only get the silver from the item when you submit the scene) - (leaning towards using this one)

To get Business Item can do the following:

  • Can do Scene and meet XP Requirement
  • Pay Equivalent in Silver


Once Business is Established

Player must create an open NPC to be in a management position for the business

  • This NPC will be usable by A/SH’s
  • Must follow NPC guidelines
  • In order to change/alter/update after NPC is established Player will have to work with Setting following the same rules as any other NPC update.
  • Player will be given a set time in order to create NPC before Setting will create one for them. Proposed time limits : 2 weeks to 1 month

Hiring employees costs nothing for the Player

  • NPC employees - can assume there is enough to help the business run minimally, considered reflected in the Business Item.
  • PC employees - Must follow PC to PC relationships Guidelines
    • Hired via a Recruitment Session - Standard Rewarding Applies
    • A/SH will oversee if PC owner chooses to do it or A/SH can run it using NPC associated with business


Maintenance and Growth of the Business

Upgradeable to reflect growth and investment into Business

  • Multiple ranks of item (Set a cap?)
  • Each rank purchasable via XP or Silver
  • Can’t skip item ranks
      Each rank will just be paying the for the perk increase (ie if the current level gives 200 Silver and the next level 300 silver then the next rank cost will be for that 100 Silver gain)

Item will have a Silver Value - that Value is the price of the Business

  • Item can be bought, sold, traded per the usual Item Rules reflecting the buying, selling or trading of the business.
  • An active Player can not be forced to sell if they do not wish.

Must do a scene to unlock the reward for that month

    A month is due to the current guidelines of PC employment where once a month a little bit of relevant RP reflects the continuing employed status.

If the Player doesn’t do their monthly maintenance they get nothing

  • Player can not have other Player(s) do the maintenance play for them and get the reward.
  • Player can not say ‘NPC did the work’ to get reward

If the Player goes inactive they lose the business

  • Inactive means:
      Not logging in for 6 months
      Being unresponsive for 6 months despite logging in
        Unresponsive = ignoring any contact regarding the project
  • Setting will assume control of the business using the associated NPC
      Business will then follow the same rules of any other NPC owned business
      Must keep the Setting elements moving forward
      Part of the nature of the game is competitive in nature and always changing, we can not just pause something because a player can no longer play.
  • If Player returns to being active can either start over or try to purchase lost business back
      Any conflicts between Players will be handled by Social and Setting


Multiple Owners/Partners

Follows the same steps but the work/costs can be split among the Players wanting to co-own and do the RP scenes in a group rather than solo.

Each owner has to get their own item - no sharing a single item.

  • Each owner is responsible for upgrading their own item - though those scenes/costs can be done cooperatively as well.
  • In regards of using coin to buy for the other players it follows the same rules as other PC to PC item transactions.
  • To considered, if the work is split, divide the item per owner.
      (IE If the first rank of item gives 200 silver, and two players decide to co-own a business together they do all the work together to get the item. Thus the 200 silver item is split between them so they each get an item that grants them 100s.

      Each item will have its own value and it is the price for the part of the business that one character owns. This is for in case one Player wishes to sell or transfer their share and it won’t affect the other Players and won’t mess with the general pricing of the business.

      Will also allow for a way to account for unequal distribution of work involvement, or if a Player just wants to sell ‘part’ of the business but not all)

It is up to the Players to collaborate on what happens to the business. Any disputes that rise up Social will instigate mediation between the players. Setting will be consulted as need be.

Still requires a NPC to be in a management position - follows same rules as above.

If all Players of the PC owners go inactive for 6 months, then Setting will assume control with the associate NPC(s)


Transferring Ownership

Means trading, selling, giving the business item to another Player or NPC if applicable
The transaction can not be forced in anyway (Has to follow the same rules as all item transactions between PCs).
There must be a scene to provide a record of when the transfer of ownership happened.

Once the transfer is complete the former own looses the business item as the new owner gains it (no holding on to it unless of course there is only a partial transfer of control - ie gaining a business partner of which refer to the co-owner rules).

The new PC owner can not fire PC employees without an IC reason (and must follow the PC to PC relationship rules) nor can they get rid of NPCs in a position of authority (though they may request to assign a new NPC of their design in place of the previous NPC(s))


Outside Investors

Being based off of a business item type that grants X silver for a monthly submitted scene.
An investor is not the same as a Co-Owner/Partner - Will have no say on how to run the business.
Investor will get their own kind of item that they can unlock the reward in a scene they can submit monthly.

Investor item will be tied to the investor and not a business.

    This way if a character has multiple investments they won’t need an item for each one, they can just keep it all in one and do just 1 scene.
    We can list in the item what businesses were invested to to grow it.

To obtain the item:

  • Can use Silver or XP payable to the Owner to get a ‘percentage of profits’
  • 'Percentage of profits' will not remove anything from the actual business item
  • Pay a percent of the value of the business item value
  • For the percentage an investor puts in they get an item that will grant that same percent of the Silver granted by the business item.
  • If the business ranks up - the investor item does not increase
      This is to prevent getting more reward for no work, if the investor wants more, they need to go invest again.
  • Example:
    Iggy wants to invest in a business that has a business item that grants 400 Silver for a monthly scene. They decide to invest 15% - this means they will pay 15% of the value of the business item to gain an investor item for 15% of the profit at the time of investing - which would be 60 Silver. That means when they do their monthly scene they can use their item to be guaranteed 60 silver.

In the case of using XP to gain an investment

  • Could be ‘stored’ by the owner to apply to a future scene relating to improving their business
  • Could be about haggling with a NPC owner (haggling with PC owners is not being considered as that requires the consent of the player which is something that can not be forced)

If an investor does not submit their scene they do not get anything


NPC Businesses

Will have an item rank assigned to them based upon their description and role
Will have at least some portion available for PC purchase
Well known and established ones may be subject for additional Setting oversight

    Will be clearly stated
Madius
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Finally getting caught up

This looks fantastic! All the Social concerns are covered, at least that I can think of currently :)

I had one question and one suggestion:

- Does players being "inactive" mean not logging in (the admin version of "inactive")? If so, that may be worth clarifying, so that folks don't think it means "not actively RPing the upkeep of the business." If it is the latter, then again, worth clarifying :)

- It may be worth setting a specific deadline for business owners to create their own right-hand NPC before Setting does it for them, like "you have one month from the time of the Recruitment session to submit the business NPC to Setting, else Setting will create one for you." That kinda thing, just to make it clear how much time they have.

I'm also coming up empty as far as the specifics of investing go. I think my stumbling block is in understanding what the gain of the business Upgrades are. Once we had those, hopefully the specifics of investing in a business might become clearer.

Zxehenia
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Defining Inactive - It definitely includes means the not logging in version (when account goes inactive). Though we will have to consider defining inactive beyond just that to prevent people from being able to hold hostage projects by just not letting their account go inactive. For the most part if a player doesn't rp the upkeep then they get no reward, and they can't have other people do that work for them and get the reward.
However if a player stops responding or refuses to cooperate concerning matters of their projects then we have a different problem. That will be under the wheel house of Social and Setting, however I will make this recommendation - in such a case that once a player becomes unresponsive about their charater projects within the time frame set above Social and Setting will review what is going on. Hopefully in most cases it will be just moving the players that are still active and involved to an equal project to keep things moving forward, but if the project in question has a large impact on the play of other players and the setting, then that unresponsiveness should be counted as inactive as well. This should be stated clearly: If you abandon the project in any way or attempt to disrupt the play of other players even by not being responsive, you risk loosing that project, no ifs, ands, or buts.

I had thought about including that in, but I wasn't sure if that was too much or not, but its nice to know someone else had the same idea, so I will add in a note about there needs to be a deadline in order to keep feet from dragging.

Yeah investing is one of those funny things where it is in a way designed to get something for no work; after a very elaborate set up extra, and spending in money (like those currency generators for free to pay games where they offer you some random thing you can buy for 200 special cash only currency and get like 600 special cash currency after X amount of time).

The business upgrades should be in effect a skill boosting item relevant to what the player meant for their business.
It is to tie into that idea of employment and rping it out once a month.

In the case of owning a business part of it is getting money - but you have to do the scene for it. Silver gains is affected by PP generated so this business item will be an item that can stack even with another item that boosts the same skill in order to reflect the business resources. I think I didn't note the stacking part, will need to fix that. Cuz higher the mights the better the odds for good PP generation.

IE George has a cooking skill, he already has an item that gives him +8 to it. George's player decides to start up a business with him, its a cheese shop and George uses his cooking to make cheese and other stuff for it. Once George's player puts in the work, they get the first level item which is once a month a +5 to his cooking skill - so when George does his scene for his monthly employment he gets to use both of his items and gain a +13 bonus, whcih means more silver for George.

Alternatively George could also have a business type skill, so instead of gettin a buisness item to boost his cooking, he gets one for the business skill so he can play out George handling his business stuff as part of getting his silver for the month from the business.

Madius
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Business item

Oo, I do like the idea of an item which boosts monetary gains but only from scenes submitted for silver. It's like an Econ boost you have to work for, but it is still a boost if you do the work.

In that case, I have a suggestion that may also help with the upgrades/investing notion: instead of a skill boost, the business is a direct modifier to one scene a month in terms of bonus silver gained (say, 25 silver base, or 300s a year if you submit a silver gain scene each month). Investing silver in the business costs in the short term, but each tier of the business increases the silver bonus, which pays off in the long term.

Then the business item could track the "bonus PP" of silver to be gained, and maybe even the time since last used in a scene, if admin is up for getting fancy with it.

Zxehenia
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Actually yeah that could work out better, and really give players another option - so they can pick what they want out of their business persay, and it all comes back to - you have to do this scene to get the goodies.

nezumi
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So starting a business does

So starting a business does not require an investment? That would seem to be an easy way to make sure players aren't getting 'something for nothing'--a silver today is worth two silver tomorrow (or a rep boost or whatever) plus adds realism. And there's no requirement that it be specifically silver; silver buys the necessary equipment, employees, advertising. Reputation would be calling in favors for equipment, or drumming up investors on your good name. XP is just doing stuff your dern self.

This would have a few positive benefits;
1) A rich character can immediately stand up a large business.
2) Businesses have hard values, so can be easily bought, sold, tracked, etc.
3) The investor question is resolved.
4) It resolves the 'something for nothing' conundrum. Assuming we guarantee returns, this is like interest on a loan. 10 silver today is worth more than 11 silver in ten years, so getting regular returns from a business is already 'paid for'. If you decide returns are not guaranteed (which would be more realistic and your rules already imply) that's even more the case--10 silver today is definitely worth more than /maybe/ 11 silver in ten years (and maybe 0).
5) It ratchets up the drama. You have skin on the line. It also dissuades people from becoming business 'owners' who don't actually want to run a business (they can become investors or employees instead).

Cons:
1) It shafts poor people who have nothing to invest (i.e., models real life)
2) Characters may potentially lose a lot

(Disclosure: I love economics. I would love to play 'investments and futures'. If I can bundle debt obligations and sell them to newbies, I will uhh... absolutely... not do that thing...)

Zxehenia
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I am not sure what you are trying to recommend outside of a - you pay now and after X time you get W back - which is something I was trying to avoid with this in general. Outside of Ranks within an established group, in order to use Rep for something you have to RP (and rep gives up to a +25 boost for those actions.) So it comes back to people will be using Silver or 'XP', as I would like to avoid reputation just becoming another flavor of currency, rather then a situational currency.

A)To get anything beyond just a RP topic (aka to get any kind of perk) - a player has to invest XP in starting it, or buy a business that already exists
B)The idea is to tie immediate reward into the player's hands IF they pay for it in some form - which is usually in the form of XP investment (aka doing a scene).
C)The buying of the item reflects them flat out putting money into their business - or if they choose to do it with XP that way to give people options.
D)The item is also a reflection of the Hard value of the business - since we can put a value on such an item, that is the price of the business, we can track that item, and people can buy or sell that item.
E)There is already skin on the line - if you go inactive you lose your business, if you are not active enough you may lose PC employees to more active peeps (something that will be more of a factor when we have more people), if you don't put in the scenes you don't get a thing period, and if you roll bad in your scene well you may not get anything or hardly a thing.
F)Drama is made in RP - not by the System (that has not worked out well for us in the past ...trust me)
G)Maddy's suggestion may solve the investor wall I had - I just need to do the math but I have been busy running simulations on the other stuff for System atm (sorry I am slow and stuff)
H)The Cons you listed are also things I was trying to avoid.

I also dislike for this game - paying X and getting Y after so much time with no other work, this just means people can just pay silver to get silver, which is kind of lazy imo and encourages people to not be RP active (also that is already our econ system so I would really like to avoid it repeating as much as possible). (And that is something we have had in place for a while and has been abused to hell and back, it also increased the gap of the haves and haves not furthering putting more power in a very select few hands which has lead to part of the problems we have today, additionally it was used as such to make it damn near impossible for anyone in the starting out to mid range character growth to even remotely get so it discouraged tons of players as a whole)

I want this to be accessible to anyone that may be interested in poking at it (some people never know until they try)
I want players that want to make a 'businessey' character to be able to get into that RP (we have had a few people make business oriented characters only to drop them like a potato covered in napalm once they saw they couldn't even get a starting business)
I want it on a level that anyone can understand it and doesn't require any extra finagling
I want this in a way to where past mistakes can't be repeated

I wanted to get this ground work kind of settled before adding in more suggestions, but since drama and skin were brought up.
On the list was the idea to make some businesses always a competition - these would be NPC 'owned/started' and regulated by Setting - but pretty much for these businesses they will always be up for grabs (aka pvp flag always on), they would be somewhat lucrative, but there was always the risk that someone else could come and take it from them

Zxehenia
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Also I feel like I need to apologize, I don't mean to be pushy or dismissive of anything. I know I said I want, because its true, but please do keep in mind if more people than me want something else and that something else gets posted up and we can dissect it to see of it works, we can totally do the something else.

Also I wasn't really looking at realism when designing this. I am kind of avoiding it tbh... Mostly to keep me from falling down a deep rabbit hole which would be more likely to break stuff then be of any use. So take that with a grain of salt. The other thing is economics was never my strong suit, and is one of the things I find most annoying in games.
So I am not trying to discourage alternatives (truly if you think you have a well designed alternative that can work post it so we can dissect it and see).

Hopefully I am not, sorry. yeah. hides

Bastlynn
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@nez - you are the reason we

@nez - you are the reason we put together the crime/justice policy for how to handle IC punishment without hurting OOC people too much. And for the record I love you for it - cause if anyone is gonna poke holes in something you will.

@zxe - I swear I am not ignoring these threads! I've been buried hardcore under work post gencon and just now have gotten to surface and will be reading and feedbacking asap :)

nezumi
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No pushiness perceived :) I

No pushiness perceived :) I enjoy playing out the mechanics of gaming, but I recognize a lot of that is throwing stuff at the wall and seeing what sticks (and as a non-admin, non-SH, most of my stuff won't).

Quote:
I am not sure what you are trying to recommend outside of a - you pay now and after X time you get W back - which is something I was trying to avoid with this in general.

You seem to have sorted out it out already in your revised comments--sort of?

"Economy System is put X amount of Silver and get Y amount of Silver over time - do not want to repeat this" is listed as an issue.

But then, we are told to create a business, you:
"Pay Equivalent in Silver" and
"Each rank purchasable via XP or Silver"

And as a result, you get a 'business item', which "will boost silver gains in a monthly scene."

I'm not complaining. It seems pretty straightforward. But it seems to be contrary to the issue listed. Could you please clarify?

------------------------

I also saw this: "Must put some form of ‘work’ in to get some reward - aka no passive gains"

Why is this? Is this specific to "your business won't run unless you do work in running it"? Or is it a broad declaration? And if the latter, why does it apply to some things (businesses) and not to others (buying equipment)?

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Re: Investors--I think you're over-complicating it for no apparent gain.

If you're running a business and I want to invest in it, I don't buy a separate item. I give the money to you and you decide how to disperse it. If you make bad decisions, I lose my money. If you make good decisions and I ask for my money back, you would pay out whatever we agreed. If you're a cheat, we use the justice system. The whole 'investor item' suggests Vaxia has an SEC somewhere and is backing investments.

What I would recommend instead is;
1) Create a place for people to easily archive documents, where they can be quickly found and can't be changed. This is your contract library. If I want to make a public contract with you, we'd agree and post it here. Then there's no disagreement later about what's happening. (This would be good for other things too; once inevitable revolution occurs, we'll need somewhere to post the new Magna Carta. But the forum fills this gap for now.)
2) Probably put limits on how much I can invest, so I'm not staking my life savings on it and flip out when things go sour.
3) Make it absolutely clear that any money I transfer is now yours, and I should count it as gone. If, in gameplay, I decide to invoke the criminal justice system, that's fine and good as a game drama thing for telling an awesome story. But from a mechanics perspective, if I transfer money to you, there is no requirement you give it back, or the contract is necessarily enforced. It's really important I understand, I'm playing a game with pretend money and if I give away my pretend money on my pretend drama, one way or another pretend drama is what I will get, and the money is 'spent'.

LadyKirsten
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Ok, I've got some thoughts.

Ok, I've got some thoughts. And instead of just thinking them into the cavernous echo of my own mind, I should try to share them. ;)

@Nez- I actually have a sorta answer to your question about the passive gains. It may be re-explained by others cause I might be totally wrong, but this is how I think it's working.

In the case of a business, I think we want to avoid someone starting a business and then kinda assuming it runs itself. Since being a business owner opens up all sorts of RP opportunities both for solo and for group (like hiring other PCs and such) it's already good, even without a large silver gain. Even the rep you can earn from all that RP to run a business is a nice benefit all on it's own.

But there could always be those that would abuse the system. So there could be people who would start a business, afk as the business "grows", and then they might return to collect the rewards after enough time has passed. So I think what Zxe is suggesting is that we want to make sure that people don't just set up a business and then get rewarded down the line if they don't do anything (in this case RP every month) to actually make sure the business thrives. Which is different than buying an item. In that case, you invest the silver or put in the PP to make it, and then it's your bonus forever. The reason that still seems to track (for me) is because I'm looking at the main benefit of a business in this game as an RP opportunity more than silver. So that's why the difference between how a business and a item would work makes sense to me. But I fully understand that not everyone would view it the way I do, so I am sure someone else could clarify that bit a whole lot better. :)

So with that said, I want to say I do like the look of the system. But I should put the asterix on there that I'm thinking of this as an RP opportunity more than a monetary one (as I explained somewhat above). But to me, I think it's looking really good.

With this new system I'm looking forward to testing it out and seeing how it works on all different business types. I don't see any real advantages to starting up any specific type of business. I was wondering if there might be any gaps there, but I don't see any. So it looks nice and open ended, and I think that most business types will work perfectly under these rules. :)

Zxehenia
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.

The Economy system is already a passive gain.
You put silver in to raise it up, and it automatically pays out silver on a daily basis, with a monthly cap - this is the stuff I don't want to repeat, we already have that in.

The item:
Requires a scene to 'unlock' the silver gain, of which that silver can then be invested in the characters economy or used to purchase stuff.
The item will also have multiple ranks that one can purchase.

So all a person would want to do if they just wanted their business pay out just have to make a couple of relevant posts, and submit, and get their payout. They won't even have to roll unless they wanna get more silver.

This is actually in line with our employment rules which does have a suggestion on posting once a month to reflect the employment - (in the future we will be looking at a way to have employment give a monthly payout rather then a flat econ boost)


Buying equipment does have some form of work - either you do sessions to get gear, or you pay silver (earning the silver to pay with is considered the work, and even investing your silver into your econ is considered work), or you craft - exact same options as the business stuff (minus the crafting)

Same with skills, languages, and the upcoming ranks in organizations.

This is a general System rule.

Activity on the site is the linchpin here.

In the past we have had people able to do nothing and be absent from the site and get all kinds of really fantastic and even game breaking goodies, and insane amount of money.

So you want stuff? Gotta be active on the site, gotta put in the work - do the rp, earn the silver, etc.


How is it complicated? TBH I think what you keep trying to suggest is more complicated :p And not as easy to automate.

Its a straight up you want to invest, so you can pay a the owner an amount, then the the investor gets an item that they can then unlock the monthly payout with a scene.
The item will pay out whatever percentage of the worth they invested in.

Then in the players wanna go all total drama over the business thing they can, but the System aspect is all out of the way and doesn't require a babysitter to comb through the shenanigans.

Repeating the example:
Iggy wants to invest in a business that has a business item that grants 400 Silver for a monthly scene. They decide to invest 15% - this means they will pay 15% of the value of the business item to gain an investor item for 15% of the profit at the time of investing - which would be 60 Silver. That means when they do their monthly scene they can use their item to be guaranteed 60 silver.

The investor paid 60 silver to get an item that lets them unlock 60 silver -a month- so long as they do their monthly scene.

The item isn't the thing you are buying, but a system representation of what you did invest.
This also prevents people from getting screwed over should another player go absent.
This also prevents needing a SH to go through and do things manually and making sure the rules are followed
It keeps the work on the player, going back to the put work in to get stuff
Items are easier to track then people
Need also a way to keep such player to player interactions from being weaponized
Even if its fake money and stuff, there are and have been people that freak the hell out over when things go bad. We must account for those.

1) Create a place for people to easily archive documents, where they can be quickly found and can't be changed. This is your contract library. If I want to make a public contract with you, we'd agree and post it here. Then there's no disagreement later about what's happening. (This would be good for other things too; once inevitable revolution occurs, we'll need somewhere to post the new Magna Carta. But the forum fills this gap for now.)

- We have that already - any changes to any page (wiki, forum, chat post) on this site the original version is still around, we can see ALL revisions. So even if something becomes a they said they said we can go and check all the revisions. So the forums still do fill that role.
Anything done offsite is not counted. So even if they have a google doc, they gotta bring it here.

2) Probably put limits on how much I can invest, so I'm not staking my life savings on it and flip out when things go sour.

- This is a non issue with how I have it laid out, as all the stuff is still in the hands of the player no matter what, they just have to unlock the silver per month with their item. You can only invest as much as the business is worth at the time (should prolly throw that up there).

3) Make it absolutely clear that any money I transfer is now yours, and I should count it as gone. If, in gameplay, I decide to invoke the criminal justice system, that's fine and good as a game drama thing for telling an awesome story. But from a mechanics perspective, if I transfer money to you, there is no requirement you give it back, or the contract is necessarily enforced. It's really important I understand, I'm playing a game with pretend money and if I give away my pretend money on my pretend drama, one way or another pretend drama is what I will get, and the money is 'spent'.

- A non issue with what I laid out above, it keeps everything still in the player's hands after the initial transaction to 'invest' and it is then up to the player to then 'unlock' their payout with their monthly scene.

If players want pretend drama over bad investments then those players can coordinate that fantasy on their own with no need for a babysitter, unless of course in the duration of that RP they do decide to invoke the justice system, and then go from there.


One thing to consider for the investment thing is maybe putting a time limit?
Ie you get 6 months to use it (of this is agreeable then each investment would have its own item)

With the business one you risk loosing everything in going inactive, so I don't think that is needed.

nezumi
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I think there's a difference

I think there's a difference of philosophies here.

I see the focus as being one of social (the interactions between people), and of minimizing restrictions on the startup (even if that results in complexity naturally arising later as an evolution of the system). People getting treated fairly by other people is not a priority.

Yours seems to be focused on curbing possible future drama by isolating processes under a strictly-defined system. The results are predictable and fair from any given starting state.

My preference in playing this game (Vaxia) is definitely the social interactions. The latter format doesn't create potential 'lose' scenarios, nor is there advantage to playing better or smarter, just more (and luckier). But like I said previously, it's not my site :) So however you decide to roll, I'll roll with you.

Zxehenia
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.

The social aspects are still there. As mentioned the players are free to coordinate their RP to go in any direction as given.

I still see the social aspect as being very present, just the 'money' is being taken out of the equation and handled automatically. So its up to the players themselves to prompt that kind of play and not rely on 'bad luck' or a system that can be unfair. And to also prevent the staff from needing to untangle a mess.

We have some players that have historically come up with their own 'luck' system to roll dice and determine if their character succeeds or fails in a predictive system.

Part of the idea was to see if we could 'automate' (ie remove the need for a SH to always babysit)

But this is your site, if your an active player here this is your site. This is everyone's site, hence why we throw stuff up here to hack away at it.

So it kind of sounds like you want a strategy-esque system. I guess we could re-toll the gambling system and make investing a session. It moves away from the automate, but goes back to the risks and stuff.

I dunno, sorry, I am blanking atm. Will try and poke at it.

Zxehenia
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I also apologize if I have

I also apologize if I have done upsetting or something, I am trying to prevent some old problems coming back around and stuff and yeah. I don't mean to be pissy or dismissive and stuff. So I am sorry if I am coming off like that really. Sorry.

nezumi
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Nah, no pissiness detected.

Nah, no pissiness detected. And I am the least-active active player here, and only one person. If no one else cares for it, I'd put it aside, since most likely, even I won't end up using it. Just putting it on the table.

Zxehenia
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.

It has been nearly a month since this post has gone up.

I am working on an additional investment system that will be more about high risks and higher payouts then the one outlined above that would also hopefully invoke more strategy in order to do. It will not replace what is outlined, but more so be an option for players that want that kind of mini game to play vs a more steady one.

With that said, if there are no major issues I would like to put this into a effect and get it tested out. We will be able to make tweaks as we go along, so providing feedback if you do participate in the play will be much needed.